Episode 3: Learning from Claude Michelle Oliveira

Jocelyn Bell  00:00

Jocelyn Bell, welcome. This is from ideas to impact, a podcast where students, professors and professionals explore the question, how do you change the world in creative ways, no matter what industry you're in? I'm Jocelyn Bell, a sociology professor who teaches the human Spark, a class at Bryant University in which we delve into the sociology behind the overlap of creativity, innovation and a love effort.

Jocelyn Bell  00:40

I'm so glad you joined us to hear from Claude Michelle Olivera, the founder and artistic director for valiant arts, a dance studio in Rhode Island, and she's also a licensed therapist who specializes in working with adolescents and using dance therapy techniques. You can find the link to Claude Michelle's bio in the episode description, as well as a link to the rough transcription of this episode, as with previous episodes, I offer my thanks to you for your patience with the audio quality. My laptop had to become the default audio recording device for the discussions, the Hochberg Women's Center sponsored Claude Michel's visit to Bryan University this past spring semester, and I used her work through valiant arts as a concrete case of the mezzo level overlap of creativity, innovation and a love ethic early on in the semester for students. And so I was glad to bring her in. It was very full circle moment, the example of her work really, really helped students at the beginning to understand why we were talking about love in a class on creativity and innovation. If you're curious about that yourself, I encourage you to check out episode zero of this podcast to hear a quick explanation of the class as part of the human spark class, students practice and build skills for organizing guest speaker events and practice interacting with professionals from various industries. So the questions were crafted by students and the CO facilitators for her visit and this discussion were Jake, Jenna and myself. Let's hear from clava Schell. My

Speaker 1  02:48

name is but now I'm there all of that you said, and more. I am currently a therapist, and I love to just think about therapy in a sense of healing for myself, and really looking at it in a way of how can therapy be utilized in so many different ways, and not just in the four walls of a therapy space, right? And so I think, like when you're walking, and, as I can say, as a dancer, especially when you're dancing, because that's a lot of what I'm going to talk about today. But I think for me, I think about, like my why, when I think about moving, even just doing this, talking thinking about why I started, why I started. And for me, passion is just movement and mental health and being able to have conversations with people and looking at them and saying, What do you need, and how can I help? Right, in so many different ways, in that empathic lens, in some way, shape or form. And so when I think about people, when I think about creativity, when I think about the arts, that's what I think about, right, really leaning into the essence of why we do what we do, and empathy in this, like rooted, emerging movement and mental health together, right? And so I started, what was my journey in itself. I am a faith based woman, and I love to dance. And one day I'm like, I just want to start dance group. And so I was on the bus coming back from, like, youth group. I'm, like, Guys, you want to dance, let's, let's do this together. And, like, yeah. So from then, I just create. I don't know how I did it, because it was so many things I had to do at one, but it was heavenly praises. So went from Heaven praises to valiant arts. And obviously, over time, it kind of rooted into Valley arts, because I wanted to open up the space, in essence, for everyone to feel like they had a place to belong. And not just if you are this, you have to come in there. But I love the idea of devotion and bringing someone in however, right, what in whatever space that they were in, in their. Dance journey and their mental health journey and their creative journey, come just be with us, right? Because I think everyone needs a space to just belong, but still rooted in the same idea of love and creativity and really trying to bring the arts together in that sense, right? And stop me if you have your questions then, but I think you guys are going to ask me anyway, but this is where we are. This is valiant arts. This is my, my, my, my happy place, my second home. I used to say it's my first baby, but now I actually have a real baby, so I have to shift it to see that. But I love this space, because even before it was this space, right? I had one little room where everything happened in that one space. And Professor Bell could tell you that I was just telling her the epitome of friendship, but one day I'm like, I need to revamp and Feng Shui and just turn my studio around. And Jocelyn and my other friend, trifecta, Brianna Henry's, which was here prior to stayed up with man till five o'clock in the morning, and shifted the studio around to what it needed to be to create a space for my, my just the youth. So we have individuals, ages three to 17, that come into space, and sometimes they come in even when they don't have classes. What are you doing here? I'm just gonna practice. It was like but I wanted that space for them so that they can feel a sense of comfort. They can feel like they can talk to me, right? Because then I I am there, not just as a studio owner, but also as their choreographer, but also as a therapist. Right to literally give them that space that they need. And my motto for myself in life, and even for them, is be bold in what you do. Right, take a risk and be courageous. Because, right, we don't know what's going to happen within the next hour, but you know what? Go into it confidently in that sense. And I emphasize on that a lot more. And so that is one of the things I do when I think about them. And I have a lot of heart to hearts with them and like so, before we go into this piece, a lot of it is, what does this mean to you? Everything that I do has to have a meaning. I don't care what it is, right? Even this coming in your conversation, what? That's why I talked about my why. So what does it mean to you in that sense? So whenever they express themselves, whether it's through a monolog or dance, I think of what are we what is the message that we're trying to portray? What are we trying to tell everybody when it comes to the essence of like, the arts? And I always lean on resilience. For me, I it's probably not the best thing, but I grew up just on survival. I had to make it through regardless of what life threw at me. So I had to be resilient, and dancing and creativity was probably one of my ways to get me through sad. Do a little dance. All right, I'm gonna, I want to make it happen, but I needed to follow through with my gut feeling and just be resilient in having conversations with people, be resilient and, all right, I don't know if I'm gonna have this business, but go on. But okay, all right, I'm gonna do it now, and it's been seven years, so it's just really trying to figure out what I want to do and really push through it in that sense. And that is kind of like my creativity and healing, and as Dr Bell kind of talked about the role of love, like I would love to dance, sometimes it's tired. And I can tell you, I'm sure anything that you love can be tired, but because you love it doesn't feel as bad because you love it well, because I love it. I guess I can't say you right, because I love it. I hold that space with so much care and knowing that no one's going to take care of this as much as great as I would, right. No one's going to show up for it as much as great as I would. So I make sure that I really have pay so much attention to the space and to myself and to whoever comes in the space, so that they can feel their best as the way that I want to feel, is the way I want them to feel right, is the way I want you to feel when you come into space in that sense. So those are some of my babies at Valiants. But we really focus on that emotional safety and affirmation when it comes to them, where sometimes when I walk in the room, I can tell what's wrong, and then, like, I just overwhelmed, and I was opening myself with stuff to do, and really pulling them aside and having that like it's okay to be your best self as a dancer, right? But then, if we are not mentally right creatively, we can't be great. And so I really focus on that with them often and and so the bio talks about me now I'm at Wheeler, but I try to bring a lot of the spaces together, right? I focus on being a clinician on Wheeler, because that's what I have to do, right? But I still dabble in movement there. There's a dance program, so I really try to go in there and do some improvisation with the kids. And you'd be surprised. It's so weird, like even. High schoolers, it's such a different world where I have a middle schooler at my studio that can do so many different things, but that's that goes back to pushing that boldness and resilience in my students. And not to say that the whale students don't have it. It's just not something that was probably introduced to them as of yet, right? And so I really try to really give them that sense of engagement and community and understanding why we're here. And I operate in a spirit of excellence, I think is what I would say to everybody I work on this until not perfectionism, but operate in a spirit of excellence when it comes to what I love to do in that sense. But that, you can ask me that later, but I know you are, but that's pretty much a lot of what I do at Valley and connects. I know there's gonna be a lot of conversation, and I don't want to be redundant, but that's me, and I've been dancing, I would say, since I was born in Haiti. I guess I should say that I was born in Haiti. I wasn't born here. I came here when I was 11 years old, and it was definitely a major culture shock. Um, when I came here and it was December, it was cold. Um, now I have my little tutu dress on. Did not like it, but it was an opportunity for me to be where I am today, and being able to build as owner of God, as a business owner and as an educator. So I'm super excited for that. And now I can, you know, happily say that I have my own business. Jeff at just building community. I love unival. Anywhere I go. I'm like, Who are you? What you doing? I own a studio, some arts things like, I try to make sure, and not an obvious way, but in a sense of really blending and building community together. And so that's why, whenever I meet someone, I try to connect, right and build that thread together. But

Jocelyn Bell  11:53

thank you. All right, Jenna, you have the first question.

Speaker 2  11:58

Well, you've clearly woven dance into every part of your work, from therapy to education to community healing. And you already touched on this a little bit, but we wanted to know what impact has dance had on your life, personally, and where exactly did that journey begin for you?

Speaker 1  12:10

Yeah, I think from one of the things I always say, I it started. I'd say when I was in Haiti, dance is probably what is rooted in our blood when we think about like drums, the gem pain being like in a communal circle, and just it was already healing then, but then, when I migrated, I would say to the US, it was really more a place of healing for me, because I grew up in a very strict household, and I had to find my own sense of therapy without going to therapy. So I think dancing was the the epitome of all right, what am I going to do with this particular woman I'm feeling not my best self, and how do I externalize the emotions that I'm feeling? So I would say at a young age, it came when I was 11, and it stayed there with me, and then I just continued on high school and college, and I'm here today. But yeah, those were my, I would say my initial start, Jake,

Speaker 3  13:15

so you touched on this a little bit, but could be a little deeper in how we came up with the idea to open a dance studio as a way to bring together the community. Yeah.

Speaker 1  13:24

So when I started having praises, it was alright. I'm at church. I want to do something, but I decided to take a break for a little like I want. I felt like I was called to just to do something more than just being in that space, and not that the church wasn't there, it was great. It provided me with right a background for a very long time. But when I wanted to open up the studio, it was to be able to have that space for everyone else in that particular community, and not just the Christians and not just the people that grew up with me, but to provide low cost, I would say, because a lot of the studios, I'd say around me are pretty much expensive. When I think about even me growing up, I didn't have the opportunity to go to a studio because my dad looked at me and said, I am not going to pay this much for you to go to dance. So I had to figure it out on my own. So I wanted to provide that opportunity for a lot of my students right at probably 75% less that they would pay elsewhere. And again, I wanted to provide them with a space to be themselves, a space that gave them cultural awareness, cultural identity, where they can tap into anything and everything that they can get into because they weren't able to get it elsewhere. And so that was my biggest why, because I know I needed it for myself, so I had to do it for somebody

Jocelyn Bell  14:50

else. And you said, in that community, what is the community just

Speaker 1  14:55

like? Within the community, I think it's more like that demographic. So we are in. In that area where, in Pawtucket Central Falls with socket line, and so a lot of my community are brown and black students, right? That don't necessarily have a space to, I would say, express themselves, whether it's after school programs, great, but then to have more of a deeper belonging, where I'm going to go to competitions and I'm going to and a lot of what our students do, even if they're not competition students, it's very much performative. Based where we will perform for Black History Month, we will go into colleges and perform whatever it may be for anything that is needed in the community. We will be there to kind of support that. And so that is why I say my community, because I am part of that.

15:45

Jenna,

Speaker 2  15:47

so you work with both school and studio settings, which I can imagine can be very different environments. So how do you navigate working with young people at the wheeler school versus at valiant arts? And do you find that your approach shifts, or is there a common thread that connects, like the two spaces to each other.

Speaker 1  16:03

Yeah, there's definitely a difference, not a major one. But I think that obviously at my studio, I am more free, right? So really, I made the decision so I'm a little bit more free to do certain things. And when I think about even putting a show together, I have this idea of like, oh, this is what I wanted to look like. This is what I want for my audience to come in and leave with in that sense. And so the modalities or the theories that I apply at the studio can be very much rooted in dance, movement therapy as a therapist, right where I'm leaning into like Marion Chase or Catherine Dunham, and really focusing on that cultural awareness where Wheeler, I have to focus on the social and emotional development for our students, right, and tapping it, because Wheeler is also very much parent based. There's a lot of parents that are focused on there, so I want to make sure that anything and everything that I do is okay with your parents, because it's a respect line too.

Jocelyn Bell  17:04

Oh, one moment before you continue, can you explain the wheeler school too? Yes,

Speaker 1  17:10

don't necessarily know. So Wheeler is Pro is a private school in Providence, Rhode Island, and out of the major six private schools, it is a top private school there it in, and I would say it is very much parent driven. It's a very expensive school to go to. It's an amazing school, right? But at the same time, a lot of decisions. It's not just, let's make a decision, right? Parents are there. You got to make sure that they understood and know exactly what is happening with their students or with their with their child so but amazing school to go to, if you have the funds, come on. Sorry

Speaker 4  17:47

to interrupt your flow, but you were saying something before about Yes, about working Bell, yes.

Speaker 1  17:52

But I think the common thread that you were saying that really kind of pulled us together is, I would say, for me anyway, is movement or even just creativity, because then same thing I would do, even if I'm just facilitating a workshop on stress management or empathy and perspective taking, I'm going to probably be giving them the same idea of resilience and confidence and tenacity and all of those things, because that's not necessarily going to change, because that is focusing on the person and not necessarily the art itself, and then we blend it all together.

Jocelyn Bell  18:29

Sure,

Speaker 5  18:30

I have two questions. The first one is just, have you had adults who are interested in the invalid arts? You're like, oh, it'd be great to have some adult classes. And did you was it a particular decision to work with, like, 317, year olds? How did that all absolutely,

Speaker 1  18:47

I think we, I started when I first started, I didn't have three year olds. It was just really teens. And then we there was a need. And so a lot of times like, we need to bring littles. And so now it's filled with littles, but we do have some adult classes. I'll plug it in a little bit, but no, I think that's that is predominantly what we do have. And there are a lot of our parents actually will say, Hey, can you do some classes for us? Because we need some dance movement too. We need some therapy as well. While the kids are, you know, taking classes? Can you do some classes for us? And they say that in a way, because I think, as a parent, there are stressful moments, and they want to have a sense of community to tap into as well. So there are certain classes that I do have for adults, but I obviously, when you look at the studio, it is, I guess, rooted in those particular ages. But for me, I always look at it, what is the need, and I will provide it, yeah, yeah. And

Speaker 5  19:49

then my other question is, I, so I teach some of the creativity classes here at Bryant. It's a general ed course, right? So it's a performing arts course, and I love. The conversation that you were having about sort of cultural differences in understanding movement. And so the idea that a lot of Bryan students come into a class and like, if we asked everybody to dance in certain different ways, right now, we would all do it, and it'd be great, but a lot of times people said, Oh, the last time I was asked to dance, right? You know, whatever, right? So, so So one of the approaches I do, but I'm kind of interested in hearing how you would approach. I think maybe you started talking a little bit about Wheeler that there's maybe a little bit more reticent there and certain things. So, like, we talk a lot about all movement is dance and right? Like, sports is dance, right? And, you know, yoga is dance, and so we kind of use that as an avenue. But I just, I'm curious as to your I don't know other avenues that you've tapped into for students who maybe don't grow up having music and dance as an everyday part of what you do, right? And a lot of times in the US education system, unless the last time you've played an instrument, unless you are an instrumentalist, yeah, it was like fifth grade, right? When you were playing into it. So then I thought you had to decide. So unless students go to a dance thing, a lot of students in everyday life are like, I don't know. So I'm just kind of curious if there are avenues that you think help students who maybe don't have the same growing up in an environment where there's music and dance and livelihood and that

Speaker 1  21:19

kind of thing? Oh, absolutely. I think expressive arts in itself is probably one of the best things I could say, where you don't have to be a musician or a dancer, but thinking about art in itself, right, whether it's drawing or theater, I think if you look at words, right, monologs can be a def, a definite way to look at art. And I try to integrate that even within, like the studio, or having a conversation with someone, because then I've been into a class where I'm like, Wait, not everyone's gonna stay here and do a full blown choreography. So how do I approach this in that sense, and really looking at it and adapting to each and every child? And so I try to use the expressive therapy models, where I assess in some way, shape or form, and see where they are and tap into, okay, well, this is more or less imagery for this particular line. This is words and really getting into some theater or really, or it's the idea of, okay, it's dance, but I'm just going to do a little two step and not go really into it. So I try to see the individual. It's kind of like every, every child has their own curriculum in that way. And I know I can't, can't do that with a full blown but it think it's more I assess first so that I can see where it belongs. So I think everyone can succeed in some way, shape or form. Yeah, absolutely,

Jocelyn Bell  22:42

yeah. So I mentioned this to you already, but the first cohort of Bryant's doctor of psychology degree program, yes, they're starting the fall, Professor tortelani had a question around this, and should have actually one of the other students in class, she echoed this question about asking, How can Bryant effectively integrate the arts into the new doctoral program to enhance therapeutic practice and holistic mental health treatment? So you got suggestions you could

23:20

also be an ongoing cover. Now,

Speaker 1  23:27

I'm here for, you know, I love holistic work, and I think the idea, when I'm so excited because we're gonna talk, but like, I don't think it should be an option, right? Like, you know how within some schools where it's, yes, this is an elective, but I think it's, it should be a modality, right? Where, alright, this is the program that it's in. This is the modality of dance. This is the modality of music. This is dance therapy. This is art therapy, right? And so that it's known, right? Because then, if someone is given an elective, they're going to choose to take it, they're going to choose not to take it, right? But I think that in itself, and really looking at and go back to my why, it's like, okay, well, if you're not choose to do modality of dance, why do you want to do it? If you want to do or merging it into Expressive Arts, where they can have all three, right? And so they don't have to necessarily choose one particular modality, but they can choose all three of them, and really have certain professors that go into that, because I think that when it comes to learning and even just having a hint of the arts within our minds and our bodies is going to be so much more helpful for our students, and so I would say, make it a requirement, not an option, is a big thing, but I want it to be an ongoing conversation, because I think I always have so many ideas that I can implement when it comes to data therapy, music therapy, art therapy or express. Therapies in itself, going into Lesley University, that's a lot of what I focused Well, that was my university, and focusing on dance movement therapy, but also really leaning into the holistic program that we did. And a lot of my projects, I think that I learned so much about myself in was with expressive arts. And think one of the major projects I did is very emotional for me, was focusing on like introducing myself. It was like introducing myself to my mom, who's like, no longer here, but I had to do it in an artistic way, right? And then where it's like, yeah, I can just easily write a paper, but how do I make that? How do I essentially curate that in an artistic way? Because then it was my love language, and winning an award was the way that I did it, and having my mom read a monolog into that. And so it's kind of like what I said to you earlier, tapping into that particular student and assessing what they need, but really going in deeper into what the arts mean to them,

Speaker 6  26:07

you know, hearing you talk, I think they're like different ways to incorporate, you know, a holistic focus, and also, you know, movement based work, yeah, I think one we're Thinking about training, right? So, like, how do we train our next generation of psychologists? Yeah, I think it so that that can be clinical training. And then I was also thinking, like, helping and healing for the healer, the the ones that are doing the healing. Yeah, this, you know, parallel process. Yes, you know, you know, I do a lot of work at the medical school as well, and a lot of my work is around helping them express their emotions. And it's really hard. It's really hard in grad school and and I think that piece of like honoring and valuing your own kind of work, your self work, is really important as, like a second pillar, so there can be clinical training, but then also your own work, yes and vulnerability, yeah. And then I think about our concentrations, which map right on, like, child and adolescent, yes, where you know your phone is your best friend, and how can you disconnect from that, right and feel in your body. I specialize in trauma and eating disorders, and I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like, right, being able to live in your body, feel empowered in your body. Yes, it's really hard to say that. It's a lot easier to be and do and to experience that absolutely and then our other concentration is health psych, which is, you know, for individuals who may have had a cardiac event, and so part of getting well isn't just physically, but mentally, but it's movement based and trusting yourself again, right? As an example, yeah. So I guess I'm just saying, yeah. I want more conversation about this. And then, of course, you know, you're training our students.

28:11

I guess that's a fourth category.

Speaker 1  28:15

No, I love that, because I do think that interpersonal work is at fault is very important. But I think one of the most decentral part is in the intra right, the intrapersonal, because in order to go out there and be confident and resilient, I need to focus on the self, right. And so that training is going to be so important to be able to say, Oh, I know how this feels within, right. And then now I can go out into like, the withness is something that I always say, Right? With miss is a it's made up word from Leslie, but it's like, how do I really focus on the witness? But I have to take myself out for a second, right? And really do that work, and that training is going to be so important. I love facilitating workshops, because then I focus on, well, what is the self efficacy come in? Right? Where does the empathy come in? Where does the idea of, oh, this is, this is stressful. How can I make it work? Right? If I can make it work for myself, as I said to you earlier, right? Like, if I did this for myself, then I can actually do it for somebody else, right? And so all of those things sounds so great, so I will not leave without conversing with

Jocelyn Bell  29:26

you. Jake, question,

Speaker 3  29:30

so how do you work to break the stigma of seeking the help of a mental health professional? And how can like we work to break that stigma?

Speaker 1  29:40

Yeah, I think that's one of my favorite questions to ask, um, my theoretical framework that Leslie was really like analyzing emotions in a culture of suppression, because as as growing up, even for myself as a black woman, it's more like what you mean you heard what you mean. You. Say, What do you mean? You better white go see, it's, it was a lot of that, and I'm sure it's like that for a lot of people. But I think a lot of times, in order to break the stigma, it's, it's, it's a structure, and it's, um, it starts from a hierarchy in some way, right? Like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, how do we focus on our like, our basic needs. What are we looking at so that by the time we get to the top triangle, we're not necessarily lost and so breaking the stigma is a lot of work that we're going to need to do in the community, right? How do we tap into doing the work, right? The workshops and going into, let's have deeper conversation as like, Well, why is going like, Wheeler, for example, I'm in the health center, so they have to go from the middle school to the health center. And some kids are like, I gotta go to the somebody has to see me walk through there, right? But they're still already thinking of, like, already thinking that even at that age, right? It's thinking it doesn't have to be right, an embarrassing thing, or a moment. It's fun to have a conversation, so I go in there and facilitate workshop and really say to them, I'll come to you, right? I will come to you. And I think a lot of times it's really meeting the person halfway. And so breaking the stigma has to start from the top down. I think sometimes, and yes, the student can be in my office forever, but do the parents know what to do right? Do the teachers know what to do right? And so we have to basically have those ideas and those structures and those teachings to other people. It's a full circle moment. So in order to break the stigma, everyone needs to be involved right, to be able to actually understand the deep, the deeper root of how emotions get processed, and why it should be processed through a process, in

Jocelyn Bell  31:47

that sense. And so with everyone needing to get involved, what for students specifically, is there part of the involvement? Like, what are some suggestions you have?

Speaker 1  31:59

So one of the things that I'm actually doing I just have this conversation today is, for example, within the school, a lot of things that I do is I started a mental club right with our middle schoolers. And it's more or less, if I'm going to get through all of these middle schoolers and all of these high school students, I need to start with a core, right? And so let's start a mental health club so that we can kind of talk about it more, and really creating a sense of student voice, right? And even them themselves. They were saying, How can we break the stigma? So that was a question even added by a middle schooler, right? It's like, huh, how do we actually do that? And so really having, they wanted to have more of a conversation, to let everybody know that it's actually okay to process that. Because for me, when I harbor those emotions, it doesn't necessarily feel great. And so starting from Lower School, right, elementary, middle school, going into that, so starting small clubs, so that they the conversation can be within so that it can spread, right, in a good way, right? Because not all spread is great. Spreading in a good way is one of the things that I do, but in a broader sense of community, one of the things that I and that's why I like to be able to give you the mic for a second, right? And so if I am up there, I plug in that mental health. And for me, that's why a lot of my shows, I implement something that has to do with healing, because then, yeah, you can come here like, I just need to watch a quick show, but you're going to learn something that has to do within itself, and so that would within, within healing yourself, so that when you leave there, you have an idea of doesn't have to be this hard, doesn't have To be this difficult to get help, to tap into. And if, if, if it's seeing someone that you relate to, if it's a black therapist, then we know something. Do it right? One of the things I say is, okay, you want to come, you want to have a therapy session on the floor. Let's have a therapy session on the floor. You want to dance, let's dance. You want to draw, let's draw. Right? And so it's really I, I worked at Butler for quite a bit, and oftentimes when they came into my office and was like, Oh, just what's on the floor? Okay, let's sit on the floor. Right again, it's meeting. Meeting. Healing is essential for self before it is transferred. And so I wanted I knew what it felt like for me to have someone that met me halfway. So breaking that stigma has to be the essence of let's start here and spread and meet Yes.

Speaker 4  34:26

And what is Butler for those who don't? Oh, yes,

Speaker 1  34:29

Butler hospital. It is actually number one psychiatric hospitals. It is located in Providence road. It's not a plug. It's not hard there anymore, I think it was one of the best places for my clinical career. But I do love Bell hospital. It's they have so many different programs. I worked in a partial program, and that is for the adolescents that come in from ages 12 to 18, and so they're there for about a week or two. Don't know, yeah, and they have groups with process groups as well as, oh, occupational therapists to help the students. And then they go back to school and reintegrate when they're done with their program.

Jocelyn Bell  35:16

Or what I say, okay, then I feel even better by asking those context questions so that people can

Speaker 1  35:26

understand that's it, because I made an assumption. So that's yes. I'll get into it by adding more plugins. Say what they have,

Jocelyn Bell  35:36

okay, so I want to open it up if there are additional questions that have popped up because I got plenty in my brain.

35:46

Sorry, I jumped in earlier. No,

Jocelyn Bell  35:48

you were good, because I also know that you have to, like, leave early anyway. So yeah, you're good. Any, any of my students that have any additional questions at this moment. All right, so something that I never asked, I realized, like last week, I was like, I never asked. Really asked her this, why is it that you chose to work with adolescents in your therapy? Work? Yeah,

Speaker 1  36:19

like, I've always worked with adolescents. Yeah, I honestly think I get them and feel like I'm always an adolescent in my own brain. What does that mean? I think that way. I think earlier I mentioned survival, I think for me, that particular core, or just like human development in my life was I feel like when I needed help the most, right as an adolescent, because my mom died at a very young age, I didn't meet my dad until I was 11, and so I had my siblings. So for my adolescent world, I felt like I was growing up on my own in some way, shape or form. So for me working with adolescents now is being able to provide them with that sense of mentorship, right? Because not a lot of them are just like me, right? And so being able to have deeper conversations and really diving into, yeah, what are, what are the deeper dives into my emotions and psychologically. What am I feeling right now? Right? Because I'm not going to have this conversation with my dad or my mom or my aunt or whomever it may be, and so I really wanted to, I saw that gap within myself, and wanted to focus on that with them. Still work with the others, but adolescents, I just feel like I don't know, I get them, and I'm able to just laugh and just do things with them, and I'm able to mold them in some way, shape or form, before they get into the just like young adult world adolescents,

37:54

they're so fun. Most people don't

Speaker 1  37:59

I just love it. I'm just I'm able to just connect with them. They're able to connect with me, and they're able and I'm able to learn so much from them. In that sense, I feel like they're able to tell me things I don't necessarily know. It's fun. Who

Speaker 5  38:17

are some of your dancers or choreographers that are, I don't know, mentors to you, or that you just enjoy watching.

Speaker 1  38:26

I absolutely love Catherine bellum, and now an Ailey is probably one of my mentors. Admiral is obviously deceased, but he has a legacy. Does anyone know who Aven Ailey is? Right? Legacy that is rooted in New York City, but he was a dancer and choreographer. Continued his dance career under the I guess I would say technique of Laban, but such an amazing work. A lot of the work that I do is like similar in that sense, because it's also rooted in culture and any dance that you focus on, like one of my favorite pieces with Alvin Ailey is revelations. It's online, even if you haven't seen it live, you can go but Alvin Ailey is my favorite, and then Catherine Dunham is probably another one of my favorites, because she is really, really dug deep into the culture. And she studied her work in Haiti for a very long time. And she protests in Haiti for about like 40 days. She went on a hunger strike for a very long time when they weren't treating the people right down there. And she did a lot of her work. She focused on the religion of voodoo for a little bit, but then really continued her work. So I love, love, love, love. Those are my favorite, favorite pioneers of dance. But then, other than that, just, you know, dance on TV.

Jocelyn Bell  39:59

Thank. Yeah. So a question you've touched on this already, and so there's some follow ups to it, but a question that the students posed ahead of time that we just didn't get to was the combining of dance and therapy, therapeutic practice. So you've already talked about how you've done it and some of your reasons why. But diving deeper, was it difficult to blend the two? And if so, like, what were some of the challenges and how you resolve them? Or if it wasn't difficult, why did it feel so natural to you to blend the two things?

Speaker 1  40:36

It was both, like it was difficult, but then it felt natural at the same time, it wasn't that because I always look at it in my brain. I'm like, it's gonna work out in some way, shape or form, like, even if it feels hard. And so I think I was explaining this to you a little bit earlier when I got my bachelor's in Psych and dance, and then I wanted so badly to blend them both together. I didn't want to just be psychologists or just be a dancer, right? And so there has to be a way. There absolutely has to be a way. So there goes Leslie. So I went and and I did Clinical Mental Health Counseling and dance movement therapy, and was able to blend it all together. And I think it's hard in some way, shape or form, because a lot of individuals are able to look at music therapy and be fine, right? Because it's been there, or even art therapy. But dance therapy is not something that people actually see as often, and so I feel like it's something that I have to be a voice for, or even fight for sometimes, especially in Rhode Island, you don't like maybe more so in mass, because that's where Leslie is and Antioch, right? But then you don't see it as often here, and so I think I have to fight for it. The easy part was because I love both of them so much. I love psychology because I love the idea of cognition and understanding what the brain how the brain connects to the body in some way, shape or form, and really that scientific part of it, and then also knowing, with dance, how the Body Keeps the Score, and how we store so much energy and trauma within our bodies, and how do we release that? And a lot of times, I love being able to have that play through, because some are not able to verbalize as I'm able to speak right now, right? And you say like I'm hurt, or you know what my trauma is really getting to me. It's really more getting into a modality of marriage Chase or really like, Okay, let's do some mirroring. Let's do this and having someone do a breakthrough. There's a lot of, I would say, clients that I had where that were just victims of sexual violence, and that's one of the biggest things that they would go to, is dance therapy, because they focus on the body and really trying to find their healing in that way. And so I think the easy part was that, right, looking at it, because I love both of them so much, and knowing that I was able to get through to individuals that wasn't able to get through within talk Therapy or CBT or something else, right? But then sometimes I'm able to just go and all four theories together and really help someone as much as I possibly can. But, yeah, I think that was the easy part. And that was hard. The hard part is really telling, like, selling the art of dance therapy, because not every it's like anything that you start at first. Not everyone is really looking for, like, dance therapy. What is that? But it's actually very great.

Jocelyn Bell  43:29

I do recommend. I have taken, like, some of the Adult Dance classes with Claude, Michelle, and so yes, she incorporates, yes, it is about the art, but also it's about we are here. This is part of healing. And so she incorporates that yes, it is fantastic. Just a little plug for yes, when they start, when they start back up again. Any other questions that have popped up, because, I mean, like I said, there's a list here that I'm just like working with. So all right, then. Okay, so a student who is not here right now, he can make today, but Drew, Drew would usually ask, this is one of his questions. What is your favorite part of your job at Wheeler and at valiant art?

Speaker 1  44:16

I think my favorite job at valiant is being able to connect with the students, and it being a little bit more family oriented, because it's not, I think most studios that I see, it's all right, you take class and you leave, right? But then a lot of them are able to come in. And yes, my name is Claude Michelle, but most they call me issue. And so it's like issue, and it is in being able to connect with them, where there are not feeling too great, and it's like all right? Well, a soft button for a second, right? We go into another studio, and we come back and we feel great. So I think that's my favorite part. It makes me feel good that I'm able to kind of just tap into both of my loves and help somebody. And I think also my favorite part is just being able to. Of dance, like, go in there with an idea and actually see the idea come to fruition, is one of my favorite parts. And at Wheeler. So I always say, like, it feels like I just started, like, in January, because, so I started Wheeler in September, left in October, at baby and then, so, yeah, it's very much brand new. But my favorite part there now is actually being able to be innovative and put my ideas into it, because there's a lot of things that they necessarily haven't done before. And I am, I don't know, I feel like I'm an impact maker. So I'm trying to break the door, especially because it's Wheeler right? So I'm trying to push the doors down. Let's do this. Let's do that. And really having someone say, Oh, that's a great idea. So a couple of weeks ago, they had, actually, maybe in February, some does anyone know what a ketchup, which is, yeah, yeah. So

Jocelyn Bell  46:04

yeah, the chocolate, yes, you all should know, because you are

Speaker 4  46:09

doing Yes. Is that Yes? I know. I know the chocolate. Oh, I did not say in the answer, you're good. I said it the way that

Speaker 1  46:15

person told me they did that. I want to say way, but within that. But it was for the staff. It was also a student, and then so I brought my theoretical framework and kind of like analyzing emotions and a culture of suppression, and it was a monolog integrating with dance. So I had one of my little sisters, and that's a dancer come in. So as I'm explaining what the body is and what it does, and really going into Laban, so movement and lab lab on movement analysis, I had her dance the particular part. So it was really, really great for them to kind of see the other part of me, and not just like the therapist and clinician that talks to the students. So that was really fun that I'm able to just bring my ideas

47:13

until I'm just trying to figure out just like you were from

Speaker 7  47:22

like, you know, dancing in church, right? And to this, yes, right, but I just don't know how that like, because, like, when I'm in church, right? Like, I would dance like, like, I think I'm like, one of the best dances, yeah. But then I was out of church I feel like, out of place, you know. So how do you translate like, church dance to like, you know, say, you know, club dance or like, I don't even know how to say like, sauce or like, how do you translate that?

Speaker 1  48:01

Yeah, no, I think that's a great question, because I feel like even when I started, when I was heavily craziness and I was in basement, there are different genres of dance right in church, a lot of times they'll call it liturgical dance. But even then I wasn't liturgical, it was just more than I focus on modern dance, which is Alvin Ailey, right? A lot of that. And I think it depends on the genre, and it depends on the message that you're sending when it comes to dance. And so when I shifted from the like being in a studio to having, from having, from being in the church, it was, the message was still that it's still faith based, right? The music was still the same, right? But then it was more or less what I don't really do club dance anyway, right? Because that's a little different, like being at the studio. So we focus on a lot of contemporary right? And so it's looking at the model, the genres in a little different way. So genres are contemporary, modern, hip hop, jazz, right? You can still do those particular dances to different music, right? And so I would say the same thing, where it's like, I'm going to praise dance and be great, because everyone's going to clap for your church, but are they still going to clap for you when you're on the street, right? But also, so I think it's just, it's the genre that you do, right? It also is a message still the same. That's how I looked at it. When I shifted from the church to the studio, I had to think about my message and what I was giving. And for me, the message is still the same, because I'm not necessarily losing the essence in the vision of correct God has given me something, and I'm going to continue with it regardless of regardless if it's in the basement or if it's in 560 you know, mineral spring avenue in Pawtucket, Rhode Island. Does that make

49:58

sense? Yeah. It.

50:01

But sometimes we can still be bad, even

Speaker 1  50:18

if we understood that that's not that. That that is on training, and I say that actually that's a great point, because whether I think a lot of times when we're at church, right, and I and I, that's why I use the words earlier, I believe in spirit of excellence, because they can say like, that was so great, and it was right, but I was very tough and strict within my dancers, even when they were in the in the church basement. And they knew that, because I wanted them to, even if they were to leave the church, they still have the training. They still, even if they left and went to a studio, they weren't necessarily feeling like they weren't their best selves, right? And so it has to be the essence of discipline. Whether you're at church, like, am I actually going to learn this technique to do a great Am I actually, if I'm going to be in a cipher, in a circle, am I going to do well, so that technique and discipline is going to be what's going to ground you, whether you're there

Speaker 7  51:17

other Questions you would you say the like, which, which part of your body, like, helps, helps, like, with, with dancing, would you say your your hands or your feet? Like, which part of the body for a beginner, for a beginner dancer, yeah, which part of body should you like,

Speaker 1  51:37

focus on? Focus on, yeah, I'd say your feet, your feet. And then

51:42

your hands. You can just throw it

Speaker 1  51:46

like I say your feet, because your feet is what guides you. So I would say your feet, whether you start a little two step, you know, get in there, yes. And then your hands. I do this with my little dances. Often don't want to do with our hands, right? It goes on our waist, then we add it, because then, if we're just doing this, it's not the best, right? But you could do a little, a little two step, here and there, and then it'll be great. But start with the feet. Yes, no, that's because then I have, I actually had an adult, like student that would take private lessons, they would just come into the studio, like, I really just, they just wanted to learn, like I want to learn how to dance when I go to a party, and they just wanted to feel good. And I love that idea, because I might not want to do it yet in a group setting, but they came religiously every week. And I started very basic, because then Jocelyn would tell me, sometimes I'm like, well, it's gonna be easy, and it really wasn't, but I have to modify, modify for that particular person, because then they needed to just do two step going across the floor, and when they were done, it was such a success for them, because they felt like, huh, I learned something, and I feel good. I can actually go to a function and do well and feel good about

Speaker 7  53:06

it, right? Can you give us, like, I know this. Can you give us like, like a show,

Speaker 1  53:12

just as long as you, you know, like, everyone's behind me and they're doing the same, you know, you followed her. No, we just,

Speaker 8  53:20

you can ask the dance instructor not to then be like, well, of course, you gotta learn it. I came with a, you

53:27

know, 16 count for you.

53:30

I can jump in. But like, we were just doing the church where we

Jocelyn Bell  53:38

just okay. So something that came up in our conversation before this started up, that I was like, Oh, actually, this would be good for you to talk about here too. I don't know why it didn't pop into my head previous. I'm like, right? She is an entrepreneur. She got her it's like she started belling in arts. And so at Bryant, there are a lot of, lot of students who are interested in the entrepreneurship track and wanting to start their own businesses. And something you brought up was the way in which some of your therapy, in impacts influences how you approach your entrepreneurship. So you want to,

Speaker 1  54:17

yes, it does, right? Because I if anybody knows anyone who knows business, or you own it yourself, we know that it can absolutely be stressful. We do not go in there and it be roses and it's everything's gonna be great, and I'm gonna frolic down the street, right? I would love that for me, unfortunately, not that. And so a lot of times I therapies is the word verifies myself when it comes to putting ideas into the business, right? Because then I you have to deal with people, you have to deal with the government, you have to deal with grants, you have to deal with parents. I have to deal with students. There's so many different layers and being and I wear so many hats, and so sometimes I. Think of, alright, how do I ground myself in this moment, if I am stressed out dealing with having three pieces to put together with a deadline, right? Or I have to, ooh, this budget does not necessarily look like it's going to get us through so a lot of things, like I was mentioning to Justin, it's a four ace to manage stress. I use that in therapy, but I always, I will. I will use it to the death of my to for a death of me when it comes to the the studio as well. Because how do I write, like, accept the things I can't change? I honestly, this is probably something I can't change right now, right? How do I adapt to whatever is that I need to do so a lot of those things I have to think about, or when it comes to just grounding myself, right? This is really stressing me out. How do I 54321, myself, right? Does anyone have heard of the 54321, grounding techniques? I do that so often, or even if I'm just like the stop method or even the SWAT method, a lot of it I utilize because it helps me function a little bit differently and have a different perspective as an entrepreneur, as a business person, and even as a dancer, because I'm looking at it like, Oh, I'm human too. You know what? I mean? It's not just, yeah, we're in business, and it's going to be great, but yes, I am going to actually feel all of these stressors, and the way that I'm telling everybody else to manage it, I have to actually tell myself that too, so that I'm not going crazy in that sense. So my, I guess therapeutic techniques and tools absolutely come in handy as an entrepreneur, and I feel like it's always going to be that way, thank God, but I do find that, like for everyone else, right? That's not a therapist, it's kind of going to go back to back to what you said earlier, Professor, right? It's like, how do I get the the training? Because now I'm going to go into being a business owner, but I don't know what to do. I don't know how to manage my stress, then we're setting up, setting ourselves up for failure in that sense. And I don't want that for anybody. So I say every business owner like I'm sure they they have to take business classes, but I think that should be part of it. Is the the well being of a business owner. I think that should be probably one of the main things they focus on. Is, all right, you're going to own a business. This is, yes, you're going to talk about budgets, you're going to talk about accounting, you're going to talk about people you're going to but the well being and mental health part of it should actually be just a section in itself, because that's important too.

Jocelyn Bell  57:30

Any other questions that pop up? Because, I mean, Auggie introduced the idea of there being some kind of dance portion in here. So, if we like, if you want to blame anybody? Blame Auggie. But for the last like 10 minutes, we could introduce some,

57:46

some movement. If you are willing. We should have any entrepreneurs in the room. Yeah.

Speaker 7  58:00

I work with my host family, and it's like non profit. We kind of, I'm from Ghana, so we kind of go home every summer, and we, we think of like a project to do in in a village. Last summer we did like a borehole for a village to provide, like, easy access to water. And then this year we're thinking about like building like a community center slash library where kids can go to read books and then do their homework and stuff that's amazing, awesome.

58:39

Love that that's amazing. You're gonna need that well being portion.

58:46

Maybe we can include

58:56

like dancing,

Speaker 1  58:58

okay, all right, any others that you own your own business as well.

Speaker 6  59:01

Well, I have a private practice. Oh, where is it? Yes, right around the Wayland square. I loved it, yeah, so very close to whalar. Plan was to

Speaker 1  59:10

start mine last year, but till it came, so now I pushed it over to next

Speaker 6  59:16

year. Any ideas, something that, you know, traditional doctoral programs, they don't talk about the business aspect or being an entrepreneur thinking outside the box. I think it's usually file your APA accreditation to get to where you need to go. Yes. And part of being at a business institution is that we're going to leverage all of our graduates will know how to set up a business plan. Yeah. And you know, understand the business aspects of being a psychologist, yeah, but you can get tricky, you know, so you can definitely get and I have all my paperwork, and I can give it to you that's I, someone did that for me,

Speaker 9  59:54

and I pass it on. It.

Jocelyn Bell  1:00:06

Thank you to Claude, Michelle, for visiting the human sparks class and for teaching us to dance afterwards, which my students did not join in. Yes, I'm calling y'all out, bringing that up in the middle of class, and then you didn't join in at the end. Did I join? Yes, I did. So visit us again in this podcast, to hear from one more guest who came through in the spring, and to hear student podcasts reflecting on the ideas from Claude Michels visit, as well as the other visits. Thank you to the Hochberg Women's Center for sponsoring Claude Michels visit, and thank you for coming on the journey today from ideas to impact.